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Countering counter jungling


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#1
OFFLINE   Sympho De Proggy

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lately i'm jungling with irelia and olaf.
most games go very well, but i've had 2 games vs a jungling trundle that completely castrated my jungling.

in the first game, blue got stolen.
the second game i was harassed continually, and ganked twice in the jungle (deep in the jungle. wolves.)

i asked my team to ward the jungle but they said we have no support so i should do that.
that doesn't seem right.
junglers are already on a tight budget.
making me buy 2-3 wards kinda plays right into the other team's hand, no ?


so
1) countering counter jungle.
jungler's or team's responsibility ?

2) how do i counter this type of play?
we're talking enemy team teleporting to wards in my jungle to gank me at wolves.
it's incredibly frustrating.
if i'm against a team that coordinated, should i just give up the jungling and go lane ?
or is there something i can do to manage it ?

Edited by Sympho De Proggy, 16 August 2011 - 03:25 PM.

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#2
OFFLINE   DivineJudgment

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First of all, it depends on the jungler. Some can live without blue. You could also do his blue when he's taking yours. Or ward his and take revenge/steal it.

Irelia is a bad, if not horrible jungler. You can't really put up much of a fight with her early game. Best is to have someone pull blue, should make it fairly unstealable.

#3
OFFLINE   Independent

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try stealing their small creeps like double golems, wraits ect and just farm farm farm. tell your team that ganks can be hard and just try to hold on.

Btw Irelia is a bad jungler, Olaf is ok but he is hard countered by counterjungling so he also falls apart there. Try someone like Cho'gath, ww, nunu, nocturne and trundle...

try stealing their small creeps like double golems, wraits ect and just farm farm farm. tell your team that ganks can be hard and just try to hold on.

Btw Irelia is a bad jungler, Olaf is ok but he is hard countered by counterjungling so he also falls apart there. Try someone like Cho'gath, ww, nunu, nocturne and trundle...
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#4
OFFLINE   3191110276

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Counter jungling is so much fun (:
From my personal experience: Ward the jungle entrance: your mid should buy a ward anyways, so they can put it at the jungle entrance
If you have every way into your jungle warded, you should see them coming
You dont really need more wards than usual, maybe a slightly different placement
This pretty much fucks up counter jungling --> as soon as the enemy enters your jungle your mid and top or mid and bot should go and gank him
if your enemy isnt stupid he will probably see the lanes leaving the same time he enters your jungle and leave, but you have succesfully defended your jungle

at red: always go into the brushes at red, I cannot count how often I've just waited in there, smite-stole red and killed the enemy (with my new red)
you should also be aware of lane movement: if they all suddely go missing the moment you start doing red, it might just be a good idea to inform your team or just get the hell away from there

blue dependant champions: your team should defend at blue buff
if you dont need it to jungle you could just do another route
its also a good idea to have a cv at wraiths (1:40)

always know what you can do in the jungle
be extra careful for junglers that can outdamage you

#5
OFFLINE   DavorMarin

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Irelia isn't very good jungler, she's not fast and she's much better at top lane ( we can say this for WW too, but he can do aggresive counter jungle and he's very good duelist early ). She doesn't have so good recovery paths ( if you got stealed few creeps, you're screwed ). So for jungling just don't pick Irelia. Trundle, Nocturne, Amumu, Gangplank, Udyr, Lee Sin are much better choices.

Edited by DavorMarin, 16 August 2011 - 06:10 PM.

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#6
OFFLINE   JustDavid

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Certain jungle picks cannot recover well from being counter jungled. A smart jungler will take advantage of this and try to steal mobs or duel the jungler. There really isn't much you can do than ask your team to watch all of your mobs before laning starts. You will at least know whether or not if the enemy has stolen a camp or two.

Picking champions such as irelia or olaf, who both have low sustain in the jungle, only provokes the other jungler to counter jungle. The best thing you can do is to switch over to stronger junglers. Learning several different paths for irelia and olaf will greatly help against counter jungling. But the fact remains that they are greatly crippled by counter junglers.
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#7
OFFLINE   Shadeypwns

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It's hard in solo que to come back from a good counter jungler, team communication is key to know where their jungler is, and warding appropriate places to gank him in your own jungle. I lost a match due to an udyr counterjungling my noc perfectly, stealing my large wraith to stop my level 3 jungle path, and then coming back and stealing my red and killing me as well. No amount of pings or begging would get my team to ward my jungle, their side lanes, or even come assist when I met him in my own jungle. Needless to say we lost.

On the other hand, the game immediately after I played Noc against Amumu, and we stole literally every blue that came up that game, outfighting the at level 1 with janna/noc/ezreal/mundo ranged abilities. He was constantly 3 levels below me and could only gank twice.

Counterjungling is incredibly strong in solo que, and the only way to really avoid it is to communicate with your team, and hope they have the knowledge to come back from it.

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#8
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Dan Danh started at twin golems with Amumu on Dreamhack to confuse the enemy counter jungling Nunu, said Nunu actually wasted a minute going through an empty enemy jungle.
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#9
OFFLINE   Sympho De Proggy

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View PostCoal, on 26 August 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

Dan Danh started at twin golems with Amumu on Dreamhack to confuse the enemy counter jungling Nunu, said Nunu actually wasted a minute going through an empty enemy jungle.


didn't see that match but it doesn't really sound a waste.
Nunu can just steal wolves and mebbe a golem minion and gtfo

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#10
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View PostSympho De Proggy, on 16 September 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

didn't see that match but it doesn't really sound a waste.
Nunu can just steal wolves and mebbe a golem minion and gtfo

Do you realize the wolves are on the other side of the map, and Amumu took the golems? Also that Nunu had no idea that the golems were gone?

To answer the original question, you need to to play mindgames, knowing what you and the enemy is capable of and outplay your opponent utilizing that.

Coal's is a good example for this. Amumu knew he is vulnerable and Nunu will try to capitalize on that, thus he changed his route to fool Nunu.

Kind of like 'using Nunu's greatest power against him'.

Edited by Daeron, 19 September 2011 - 03:41 PM.

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#11
OFFLINE   Sympho De Proggy

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View PostDaeron, on 19 September 2011 - 03:29 PM, said:

Do you realize the wolves are on the other side of the map, and Amumu took the golems? Also that Nunu had no idea that the golems were gone?

To answer the original question, you need to to play mindgames, knowing what you and the enemy is capable of and outplay your opponent utilizing that.

Coal's is a good example for this. Amumu knew he is vulnerable and Nunu will try to capitalize on that, thus he changed his route to fool Nunu.

Kind of like 'using Nunu's greatest power against him'.


that doesn't make sense.
amumu is at twin golems, and nunu is in amumu's jungle, but not where he can harass amumu.
that means he's in the enemy's blue side without anyone knowing he's there, making both wolf camp and blue camp vulnerable to steals (he probably couldn't get away with tanking blue as it's very risky, but just taking the adds+wolves would hinder amumu significantly)

he's not on the other side of the map.
coal said amumu was walking around in enemy jungle for a minute.
he could have easily stolen everything in that part of the jungle but the buff itself in that time.
and if he didn't he made a mistake.
even if he was afraid of being surprised by amumu he could at least take the big wolf + 1 with a smite+consume combo.

you can only stop that by
1) the jungler being there thus substituting a steal for harassment (which may be preferable, depending on the champ)
2) having your team guard the entrances to your jungle for longer than they normally would
3) being extremely lucky with your CV.

in amumu's case i'm pretty sure he'd come on top at a lvl 1 fight since nunu's lvl jungle spell - consume - doesn't deal damage to champs.
so a more cautious nunu would not risk running into amumu 1v1, rather he'd try to steal whatever mobs he can.
the best choice probably being Wraiths since junglers rarely start there, making it relatively safe.

with that taken into account i'd say nunu was actually lucky.
he wound up in a situation that was better than the one he was expected
he was probably hoping to steal blue, but it's hard to steal buffs from an experienced jungler.
he'd have to get close and Consume+instaSmite it.
not to mention he'd have to survive escaping the jungle after the steal.
a coordinated team (which i'm assuming this was) wouldn't let him get away with it.

stealing a few mobs and getting back into your jungle undetected is a much safer way about it.

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#12
OFFLINE   Daeron

            

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I don't remember for that exact game, but I assume Nunu went blue > enemy golems, while Amumu the said golems > wraiths > wolves.

They both predicted each other starting at blue, but Amumu was one thought ahead of Nunu and took an unusual route to confuse him.

Thus the Nunu who tried to counterjungle the 'vulnerable' Amumu only found an empty jungle and wasted his own time due the failed attempt.

Sure, the Nunu could have just invade the enemy blue, if he knew it. But he didn't, because Amumu was unpredictable. That's the whole point.

Edited by Daeron, 19 September 2011 - 08:59 PM.

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#13
OFFLINE   Coal

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View PostSympho De Proggy, on 19 September 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

that doesn't make sense.
amumu is at twin golems, and nunu is in amumu's jungle, but not where he can harass amumu.
that means he's in the enemy's blue side without anyone knowing he's there, making both wolf camp and blue camp vulnerable to steals (he probably couldn't get away with tanking blue as it's very risky, but just taking the adds+wolves would hinder amumu significantly)

he's not on the other side of the map.
coal said amumu was walking around in enemy jungle for a minute.
he could have easily stolen everything in that part of the jungle but the buff itself in that time.
and if he didn't he made a mistake.
even if he was afraid of being surprised by amumu he could at least take the big wolf + 1 with a smite+consume combo.

you can only stop that by
1) the jungler being there thus substituting a steal for harassment (which may be preferable, depending on the champ)
2) having your team guard the entrances to your jungle for longer than they normally would
3) being extremely lucky with your CV.

in amumu's case i'm pretty sure he'd come on top at a lvl 1 fight since nunu's lvl jungle spell - consume - doesn't deal damage to champs.
so a more cautious nunu would not risk running into amumu 1v1, rather he'd try to steal whatever mobs he can.
the best choice probably being Wraiths since junglers rarely start there, making it relatively safe.

with that taken into account i'd say nunu was actually lucky.
he wound up in a situation that was better than the one he was expected
he was probably hoping to steal blue, but it's hard to steal buffs from an experienced jungler.
he'd have to get close and Consume+instaSmite it.
not to mention he'd have to survive escaping the jungle after the steal.
a coordinated team (which i'm assuming this was) wouldn't let him get away with it.

stealing a few mobs and getting back into your jungle undetected is a much safer way about it.


I haven't read the second part of your post because you make it appearant that you misread like a boss, after that you started to make assumptions and treated them like facts, which they aren't.

Nunu started at his own blue and followed up with counterjungling amumu like Nunu's tend to do by going to Amumu's twin golems and then his wraiths. He didn't take into account the fact that the Amumu started at twin golems and then did wraiths himself, followed up by wolves and blue to make a safer but slightly longer jungle route.

In the end the Nunu wasted more time as the Amumu (who only wasted a bit doing a suboptimal jungle route) by walking past both the enemies golems and wraiths, losing alot of time counterjungling creeps who were already killed by Amumu.

Next time, read more carefully, don't jump to conclusions like you did. What Daeron said made perfect sense.

Edited by Coal, 21 September 2011 - 09:24 PM.

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#14
OFFLINE   Sympho De Proggy

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View PostCoal, on 26 August 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

Dan Danh started at twin golems with Amumu on Dreamhack to confuse the enemy counter jungling Nunu, said Nunu actually wasted a minute going through an empty enemy jungle.


i assumed this was a lvl 1 countering attempt and the "empty" was in reference to the jungler, not the jungle mobs.

XD when you assume...

oh well at least i did it like a baws

Edited by Sympho De Proggy, 25 September 2011 - 02:12 PM.

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View PostDivineJudgment, on 16 August 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

First of all, it depends on the jungler. Some can live without blue. You could also do his blue when he's taking yours. Or ward his and take revenge/steal it.

Irelia is a bad, if not horrible jungler. You can't really put up much of a fight with her early game. Best is to have someone pull blue, should make it fairly unstealable.



Pretty much this. If I get
ganked at blue as Udyr, I just proceed to get his blue, his wolfes, my wraiths, my golems, myred, gank, my wolfes and any remainings of my blue.

If I dont get ganked, I tend to take my team to enemy wraiths (except 1 to protect them), Steall all of then, let someone pull blue and continue junling normally.
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