18 replies to this topic

[j0nnaren]

The general idea of tanks in games like League of Legends, is a character that basically is up in the enemy's face- am i correct ?

While i was trolling around one day in normals i came across Soraka jungle. At first i wasn't too sure about it,
but it worked out surprisingly well. Now i know most people will argue that Soraka is not a ''decent'' or ''good'' jungler
because of the major lack in her ganking potential. But she can gank, just not in the same way a shaco or a rammus would.
Soraka can just heal bait.

During these games, I grew quite the interest for this concept, and i started tossing around some build ideas, and really trying to find the most efficient way to jungle with her.

What does this have to do with tanks ?
Sorakas spell ''Starcall'' is an aoe spell that deals damage and reduces the magic resistance of targets, stacking up to a maximum
ammount of 10 stacks. Each stack reduces magic resistance by 12 (at maximum rank), meaning on 10 stacks you reduce magic resistance by 120.Usually a Soraka will never manage to get so many stacks off, because well if she goes up close to the enemy team, she is most likelyto be two-shotted by someone on the enemy team.

This is where i got the tank Soraka idea. Many people say you can't have a ranged tank, because that ruins the concept of
being in front soaking up damage. But see, Soraka does never auto attack (atleast VERY rarely). Instead she spams her Starcall spell.

If you put a spell like Starcall on a tank, that would be an amazing spell right ? Hitting all enemies near you, dealing damage
while making your AP carry deal more damage to them. So why not just build Soraka like a tank?
She IS really weak without items, but with the correct items I think she could fit the role.

And for those who wonder...
Jungle Soraka hits lvl 6 in under 7 minutes. (I haven't done that much testing yet, so i can
probably reduce the time by a bit if i put in some effort, or if someone more experienced in the jungle tries it.)
She can clear it all without leashes from allies aswell.


So what do you think ?
Might Soraka jungle be viable?
And could she possibly fit in as a tank?


TL;DR - Soraka jungle viable ? Soraka tank ?

[Coal]

Not viable. Bait's aren't proper reliable ways to gank and will not work against people with a brain, they will just run to their tower and taunt you in all chat.

She can silence people out of flashing yes, but if the lane your gank doesn't have cc it doesn't really matter.

[j0nnaren]

Coal, on 01 February 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Not viable. Bait's aren't proper reliable ways to gank and will not work against people with a brain, they will just run to their tower and taunt you in all chat.

She can silence people out of flashing yes, but if the lane your gank doesn't have cc it doesn't really matter.

I kinda still want to see it working though, are we really that dependant on getting these ganks ?
Even if she doesn't gank, she can still help the lane by just popping by and healing the ally.

[Coal]

Wanting isn't relevant, I want Mundo to be a good champ, not happening right now.

Healing an ally gives them increased lane sustain, doesn't remove the enemy from the lane unless your ally has a clear shot on winning his lane on his own. Lack of CC hurts her.

[j0nnaren]

I know wanting isn't really relevant.
And sustaining someone in lane will give them a better shot at winning / keeping up in their lane. Also

Also sorakas ultimate doesn't even require you being close to help.
Heal baiting happens all the time with the summoner heal, why couldn't the same thing be done with sorakas ultimate?
She gets assists, lane gets kills or she just saved them from dying. And dying can often be the difference between losing / winning a lane.

[Coal]

j0nnaren, on 01 February 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

And sustaining someone in lane will give them a better shot at winning / keeping up in their lane. Also

What I said, but still doesn't give thát much of a shot of removing the opponent from the lane. A succesful gank does far more than healing you ally for 100hp.


In the following part you are using flawed logic:

j0nnaren, on 01 February 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Heal baiting happens all the time with the summoner heal, why couldn't the same thing be done with sorakas ultimate?

Bait's are done all the time yes, but that doesn't make it a solid tactic. You can't rely on baits, you can try them but it doesn't mean your opponent will fall for it. If your opponent has some brains you have essentially wasted a slot in the team. Also, you think about running jungle Soraka and using your ult to bait, opponents will do the same thing and realise how your presence will affect things like that.

j0nnaren, on 01 February 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

She gets assists, lane gets kills or she just saved them from dying. And dying can often be the difference between losing / winning a lane.

"O hi, Imma gank! Hey, we didnt kill anyone, but I saved you from dying!"

What?

Edited by Coal, 01 February 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[j0nnaren]

Coal, on 01 February 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

What I said, but still doesn't give thát much of a shot of removing the opponent from the lane. A succesful gank does far more than healing you ally for 100hp.


In the following part you are using flawed logic:



Bait's are done all the time yes, but that doesn't make it a solid tactic. You can't rely on baits, you can try them but it doesn't mean your opponent will fall for it. If your opponent has some brains you have essentially wasted a slot in the team. Also, you think about running jungle Soraka and using your ult to bait, opponents will do the same thing and realise how your presence will affect things like that.



"O hi, Imma gank! Hey, we didnt kill anyone, but I saved you from dying!"

What?

I know you can't rely on baits all the time, but it still is possible.


What i meant was that in some cases when you use your ulti, it could end up in your allies getting kills instead of dying to a gank ( basically the same thing as the heal baiting ) , or just saving them from dying , which still helps alot.
And i fully understand what you are saying, and mostly agree with you aswell. But lately some jungle champions have popped up that are not as much about the ganking but about counter jungling and objective control (ne example being the way Shyvana has been used lately , especially by m5 in kiev.).
And for that cause i think Soraka has pretty good, if not great potential.

[verxes]

Soraka got terrible base stats for a tank that said,even if you are able to do doesnt mean you should do.
Soraka is an exceptional support and their is just no reason to jungler or tank with when she is so good at what she does now.

[Feanor]

Soraka tank? Ignore her and focus everybody else, the towers, the inhibitors, Baron, Dragon, all neutral creeps, the Nexus, the spawn turret. Ok now you can focus fire Soraka.

[Drunkard]

She's viable in the sense that she "can" tank. I prefer to use her as a jungler in the event that we need a support and are running a kill lane bot, but only if something else wouldn't benefit the team more.

She's more like Shen as a jungler, but with less ganking ability. At 6, she's a global anti-ganker pretty much.

I wouldn't use her in serious play right now, however.

[Storm2344]

If someone is stupid but it works, it's not stupid. So go ahead as long as you win games play what you like.

[Feanor]

Storm2344, on 01 February 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

If someone is stupid but it works, it's not stupid. So go ahead as long as you win games play what you like.

Wrong. I won games with this ultimate bravery (totally random items and summoner spells). I won a game with this Mundo build (in exact order) :
Wit's End, Sorcerer's Shoes, Guinsoos Rageblade, Archangel's, Warmog's Armor, Banshee's Veil.

It's a total bullshit build but yet we managed to win because of better coordination and I was just a bag of meat. If you are stupid and it works, then it's probably because your WHOLE team (means you got carried) outplayed the other team.

A friend of mine goes 3x Doran's Ring on Shen because 'it works for him'. After 30 min he has less than 100 cs and just finished his Rylai's Crystal Scepter. Then we win and he says to me that it works, but if you look at his stats and then at mine you clearly see I totally carried him there (I was Sivir). He has better 1 on 1 tactics than me, but if his builds weren't so bad then he could outplay me any day.

[Melios]

I wouldn't really recommend playing her as a jungler or a tank.

Her abilities benefit her team most when she lanes.

If you want to use Starcall in order to help your team to it's greatest capability, go AP with bulk. A Rylia's for the slow and health, Abyssal for the MR/MR reduction (Stacked with your Q is insane), an Hourglass and maybe even a Void Staff if you want you and your AP carry to obliterate their team. It's fun, I enjoy playing AP Soraka. She farms like a beast, deals insane damage with both her E and Q, and her heals are insane (Healing everyone on your team for roughly 30-40% of their health is lovely).

If she was played as a tank, she wouldn't be a threat. Her Q will deal negligible damage, her spells in general will be relatively useless, and she doesn't provide enough CC (AoE or Direct) to make her of any use during team fights. I'm sure it's not a bad idea if you just want to try something new and have a little fun, experiment, but if you're playing to win, I wouldn't encourage it.

[Ulvein]

Your mistake, OP, is that you're arguing with flawed logic because everything you are suggesting is hypothetical. In theory, tank Soraka could work. In theory, AD Veigar could beast-mode. In theory, attack-speed Taric could stomp. In theory, AD Mordekaiser could carry like a monster on steroids with a laser-turret strapped to its shoulder. In theory, a woman could become president.

THEORY is the bane of FACT when fact is an accessible resource. If you want to argue that a tank Soraka is viable, you must first exhaust all of your available options in testing your proposed build(s). Then, when you plead your case, you will have that all-important data that others may scrutinize; numbers they can crunch; facts they can survey as they examine and weigh your case against the logic and reason which makes them skeptical of something that deviates from the norm or 'meta'.

In basing your argument around theory, you assume far too much. For instance, you compare Soraka's viability in the jungle to that of counter-jungling objective-hunters like Shyvana. What you fail to realize is that Soraka would be completely out-jungled by an opposing Shyvana without the faintest flickering candle of hope for ever capturing (nevermind owning) an objective against the ludicrous scaling damage of our lovely half-dragon lady of the Fields. Add Shyvana's (or Udyr's, or Shaco's) ridiculous speed in moving through/clearing the jungle and she's completely outclassed while being far less useful than the aforementioned champions in a ganking situation.

You also base your tank theory on the prospect of boosting AP damage for your teammates by spamming Starcall. Unfortunately, this assumes that your AP carry will survive long enough to take advantage of that benefit. Soraka has no taunt to force enemy focus (Galio, Rammus, Shen), no ability that makes her a dangerous target to ignore (Rammus [Ult], Sejuani [W], Amumu [W]), no initiation (Sejuani [Q], Malphite [R], Rammus [Q]) and no damage-scaling for defensive stats (Rammus, Malphite, Sejuani). These are what make a tank prosper, as should be apparent if you note that Rammus has all of the listed mechanics and is irrefutably the most potent tank (especially when adding his capacity for jungling/ganking like a boss).

What I'm getting at is that a tank is only as useful as their capacity to forcibly draw and hold the attention of the enemy team. That is why tough DPS champions like Mordekaiser, Garen and Volibear are sub-par tanks usually relegated to the position of bruiser/off-tank. Spam Starcall if you want, but if the enemy team breezes past you and insta-nukes your AP carry, that missing 36 MR (assuming you've cast three times by then) isn't going to hurt so much.

So, until you've provided some kind of reasonable basis (like actual data, be it by calculations/spreadsheets or [preferably] in-game summaries and numbers), it isn't likely that anyone will consider Soraka a viable tank option, and only a highly situation/sub-optimal jungler.

[ElTaco]

Why not put her solo-top or solo-mid and let her build tank items?