58 replies to this topic

[Gwynbradd]

All in all great article, I've agreed with the majority of it.

Anti-fun and the burden of knowledge are two idiotic terms of Riot which made the game so incredibly shallow for me, since I already played it for a very long time. I mean not every champion has to be as complex as late game Invoker with several active items, yet I don't see the issue to demand from players to know how to use/counterplay certain abilities. You simply have to know that some champions are stronger in certain situations, able to gank you despite wards etc.

Consider how amazing the Smoke of Deceit would be in League of Legends. It would force people to just stop being entirely secure from ganks after putting up 2 wards and it'd actually make people put down wards more creatively. Riot often stated that they didn't want the game too passively, but in a lot of games (especially on tournament level) the first kills only happen after team fights for Dragon begin. There are several reasons for that. It's easier to play save in LoL due to the combination of lower lane access, which are easier to ward due to that, summoner spells making mispositioning less punishing and the LoL map being a lot smaller in comparison to DotA. Now if you'd add a consumable item that enables getting unseen through wards then it'd encourage aggressive gameplay far more, since your chances of success increase due to being a lot less predictable. That's just my opinion and only an example of what could help making the game more exciting. I'm well aware that a lot of players would feel terrible of being dependent on even more map awareness and wards being less reliable, but honestly that'd give teams a lot more options throughout the entire game.

The prime examples in this thread so far for anti-fun champions were Bloodseeker and Eve. While I agree that Eve was during her primetime as a jungler too strong in comparison to other champions, I don't think the last nerf was really needed. At that point it was already a gamble to pick her and Riot simply took her out due to not being the standard type of champion that would do what all the other champs did. If players just played intelligently when she was missing then she had a really hard time and was quite useless later on. If you start playing DotA in comparison to LoL the first thing you have to learn is to live with being denied in some situations (solo vs duo/tri lane). Greed will be punished far more in DotA in comparison to LoL. You lose gold and creeps (even more gold + xp) and the enemies gets a huge advantage and turrets deal a lot less damage than they do in LoL. So if you managed to feed hard early then tower hugging won't help you later on either. It was similar with Eve, just let go of some creeps, if you don't know where she is and you'll be fine, but once you start feeding she'll start snowballing pretty hard, including crazy dives. But I feel that not being able to give up some creeps is an issue a lot of LoL players have. E.g. I've recenty seen Dyrus dying simply because he couldn't wait another 15s for the creepwave to reach his turret range (he already had a disadvantage since he played badly before too). So instead of losing gold of 3-4 creeps he lost gold and the xp of around 15.

About Bloodseeker: he isn't even such a strong pubstumber. Actually I hardly see him in-game and he never really impresses me. His ultimate is mostly a problem if you're already mid hp and then the person really deserves what is going to happen. You'll be fine against him as long as you're not too low or BS is already fed, but other champions can do similar or worse when fed, so that isn't really an issue. I know sometimes people screw up / get outplayed and the person starts to snowball, but that's true for so many more heroes in DotA but also for LoL, that reasoning a whole balancing concept with a hero that is unless terribly fed only able to secure kills with ultimate against relatively suqishy targets is quite ridiculous.

Keep in mind that his kit isn't that strong, he has a silencing % ad steroid that also is a DoT (for allies and foes), a healing passive similar to Eve, a ms passive similar to WW and his ultimate that damages per distance walked. As you can see he has no crazy early game damage apart from his ult and he relies mostly on mistakes of enemies or successful roaming to get decently strong.


€: It also made me smile that I already knew who gave you the rep before checking.

€2: LOL
Just read Zileas' list game design anti-patterns again.

Zileas said:

Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.

You can't implement a mechanic because the mechanic isn't 100% obvious on the first 2 uses? That's the most ridiculous explanation I've ever read. I mean you should expect from a player to inform himself about champions etc. and even if the player prefers learning while doing over reading it'd only take him 1 game or 1 question to his team to figure that out. So this is a pathetic excuse why you don't want to include less obvious mechanics. (btw you can read about spells of enemies while being in-game by either clicking on the enemy champion or going into the main menu Learn in DotA 2)

Edited by Gwynbradd, 01 March 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Nemerian]

Aldair, on 01 March 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Even more fascinating is your stance on Rupture since Riot has specifically used that spell as a measure of "anti-fun".

actually they said the dota version of rupture is anti-fun. the hon version of it which makes people understand why they are losing hp even without knowing the skill was k by them.

[Gwynbradd]

Nemerian, on 01 March 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

actually they said the dota version of rupture is anti-fun. the hon version of it which makes people understand why they are losing hp even without knowing the skill was k by them.

Not exactly:

Zileas said:

Good particle work and sound -- good 'salesmanship' -- will reduce burden of knowledge (but not eliminate it). We still would not do Rupture as is in LoL ever, but I would say that the HON version of Rupture, with it's really distinct sound effect when you move, greatly reduces the burden of knowledge on it.

In summary, all mechanics have some burden of knowledge, and as game designers, we seek to design skills in a way that gives us a lot of gameplay, for not too much burden of knowledge. If we get a lot more gameplay from something, we are willing to take on more burden of knowledge -- but for a given mechanic, we want to have as little burden of knowledge as possible.

Despite it being obvious that you bleed harder when you move (or whatever the animation in HoN is, I only know the DotA ones) they think it's too much to ask of the average LoL player to stop moving during such an ability. It's a bit weird that Veigar on the other hand has a similar ability (Event Horizon) to Puck's Dream Coil. I mean it also forces the player to stop moving beyond a certain point and when facing Veigar for the first time (without reading his abilities) people still won't know how to handle his stun for the first 2-3 uses.

I honestly don't see the big deal that people would have to spend 1-2 games to figure out how a champ works if they don't want to read the abilities. If that'd mean we get more variety of refreshing and interesting champions, please go ahead and do it. Heck even if it'd take me 10 games to figure out what it does and how to play the champion halfway decently.

[Coal]

@ Nhan, You are right, but I didn't make this comment to explain or counter anything, sorry if that confused you. I just found it kind of ironic that the so called epitome of burden of knowledge was a skill that once understood isn't thát gamechanging

I see some less good friends of my cry when they are again BS mid. I'm like, oeh BS, either I rape him or he goes all out farm/sustain and I just gank while he doesn't have the tools to gank.

Edited by Coal, 01 March 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[malphitethewise]

Coal could tell you this as well.

You think some of the things in LoL are unfair? or anti-fun? go play DotA[2] or HoN where every other character has some sort of idiotic disable 5 second stuns or 6 sec silences.

League of Legends is becoming less and less fun because of all the crying babies that complain that "amumu's immobilize is op, lasts 2 seconds" shit, Pestilence (from HoN) has a really low cooldown 2 second AoE stun.

Now you can make the argument "but HoN/DotA is HoN/DotA" and while I agree, I'm trying to make the point that all the babies are making the game harder and more difficult because they think amumu's ulti is brokenly overpowered.

IMO League is a fantastic game with excellent potential but it's being significantly hindered by it's community,

To that i'd say "man up ladies"

Edited by malphitethewise, 01 March 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[p128]

I think the whole game has some serious design flaws (eG Jungle, Items, Heroscaling) and while this is annoying, maybe some of us should just face that the game is made for a younger audience. Whom might be more applicable to terms like anti-fun, burden of knowlegde etc.

[Gwynbradd]

I was actually negatively surprised to see how low the damage 1v1 is and that it can't target creeps either. Riot actually managed to turn an interesting ability into a normal single target nuke with flashy animations or respectively a stronger from of Alpha Strike if more are around.

In DotA Juggernauts usually tried to isolate you away from creeps/heroes in order to ult you all alone (you didn't even have to be that low since Omnislash did quite some damage) In LoL it turned more into a baiting spell (triggering lifesteal) or finishing move for really low targets. :/

[Aldair]

p128, on 01 March 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

I think the whole game has some serious design flaws (eG Jungle, Items, Heroscaling) and while this is annoying, maybe some of us should just face that the game is made for a younger audience. Whom might be more applicable to terms like anti-fun, burden of knowlegde etc.

Please elaborate.

Further, if anyone has issues with design principles please describe them in you can. I have devoted about 9,000 words to this topic so far with another 25,000 of writing to go in addition to keeping threads active.

I have already stated that I am writing an extended piece about League of Legends design issues & principles. I am projecting between 28-33,000 words in that specific document so far. If anyone has specific, thought out points they would like addressed or added please for the love of god tell me. Here is my projected outline:

What is Game Theory & Why I Am Writing This (complete)
League of Legends & Game Theory; From Players to Arena (complete)
Players vs Developers (mostly complete, planning to revist)
The Growth of Players, the Game, & Why Developers Should Care Less (in progress)
What is a Metagame & How it Develops
Why Metas Are Good & Why Developers Should Leave Them Alone
Player Innovation vs Developer Innovation
Over powered, Under powered, Balance, Fun, Anti-fun, and Other Feel-Good Terms
Champion Kits & the Difference Between Created & Filled Niches
The Concepts of Defense, Tanky DPS, and Off-Tanks
The Concepts of Damage, Assassins, and Burst Mages
What "Broken" Really Means & Why the Player Base is Usually Wrong
What "Broken" Means to a Developer & Why They Are Usually Wrong
Why the Game is Always Right

Thoughts? Additions? Subtractions? Previews?

[Nemerian]

Aldair, on 01 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Please elaborate.

Further, if anyone has issues with design principles please describe them in you can. I have devoted about 9,000 words to this topic so far with another 25,000 of writing to go in addition to keeping threads active.

I have already stated that I am writing an extended piece about League of Legends design issues & principles. I am projecting between 28-33,000 words in that specific document so far. If anyone has specific, thought out points they would like addressed or added please for the love of god tell me. Here is my projected outline:

What is Game Theory & Why I Am Writing This (complete)
League of Legends & Game Theory; From Players to Arena (complete)
Players vs Developers (mostly complete, planning to revist)
The Growth of Players, the Game, & Why Developers Should Care Less (in progress)
What is a Metagame & How it Develops
Why Metas Are Good & Why Developers Should Leave Them Alone
Player Innovation vs Developer Innovation
Over powered, Under powered, Balance, Fun, Anti-fun, and Other Feel-Good Terms
Champion Kits & the Difference Between Created & Filled Niches
The Concepts of Defense, Tanky DPS, and Off-Tanks
The Concepts of Damage, Assassins, and Burst Mages
What "Broken" Really Means & Why the Player Base is Usually Wrong
What "Broken" Means to a Developer & Why They Are Usually Wrong
Why the Game is Always Right

Thoughts? Additions? Subtractions? Previews?

please send me a copy when your done. im dying to read it.

[Nemerian]

malphitethewise, on 01 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Coal could tell you this as well.

You think some of the things in LoL are unfair? or anti-fun? go play DotA[2] or HoN where every other character has some sort of idiotic disable 5 second stuns or 6 sec silences.

League of Legends is becoming less and less fun because of all the crying babies that complain that "amumu's immobilize is op, lasts 2 seconds" shit, Pestilence (from HoN) has a really low cooldown 2 second AoE stun.

Now you can make the argument "but HoN/DotA is HoN/DotA" and while I agree, I'm trying to make the point that all the babies are making the game harder and more difficult because they think amumu's ulti is brokenly overpowered.

IMO League is a fantastic game with excellent potential but it's being significantly hindered by it's community,

To that i'd say "man up ladies"

coal has dota 2 as his main game now, so i think he knows. in any case,i agree with you, the skills in dota/hon are too op for my taste( and the lol community needs to grow in this regard). for me, anti-fun means ,,can this hero rape everyone with a little feed and make me unable to stop him regardless of how smart i play?''. if yes,like most agi heroes in those 2 games, then its anti-fun. if not,im k with anything you throw at me. in lol the closest we get to that are feeded xins or fiddles.

[Aldair]

@nemerian

If league forums have a thread creation limit I will need help publishing there. The entire text will be available here in a single thread. I have chosen a multithread publishing method on the official forum to prevent quick burying.

[p128]

Aldair, on 01 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Please elaborate.

Fair enough. Though people and threads on LC already adressed these issues.

So in regards to the jungle. The whole junge problem is, that it is mandatory to have, which on the other hand totally destroys other lane comps like trilane, duo top/mid. Not having a jungler is more or less (at high elo prolly more) a death sentence when it comes down to barons and dragons, simply due to the need of smite. You might argue that a laner can take that summoner, but that simply just restricts him in his laningphase.
Imo a mandatory jungler makes the game more static. A game where one championrole is determined pregame is imo a designflaw.

Item & Heroscaling:
So why do we currently have this meta? Bruiser top, caster mid, jungle, ad & support bot. Maximizing farm/level effeciency. Before we had this the old meta was, ad/ap top, ad/ap mid, bruiser & support bot and a jungler.

TBH there is no reason to go back to this meta. I mean what is the advantage of having a 2 tris toplane, against a 2 lvl behind ashe botlane with equal farm? AD doesnt need lvls AD needs gold, thats all. While on the other hand a bruiser needs golds and levels so he has an advantage against AD in midgame.
Its the same with AP, no reason to not put an AP mid. He needs farm and levels. But actually he benefits more from levels then any other class. Since their spells do deal damage and he is able to gank all lanes.
As I said it is all mandatory and the most benefical way to play the game and due to the way farm = damage works, it is hard to change this. The game is static.
Also on items:
http://forum.leaguec...ing-every-game/

Lets face it - burden of knowledge? Really? What Brad said. Its ridiculous and imo is more a step towards ppl who are ignorant about the game. Which should not be the way a game is designed.

Edited by p128, 01 March 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Aldair]

Thanks for reference. Already had a crunched section on items. It will be moved, expanded, and attributed. Thank you.

[malphitethewise]

Nemerian, on 01 March 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

coal has dota 2 as his main game now, so i think he knows. in any case,i agree with you, the skills in dota/hon are too op for my taste( and the lol community needs to grow in this regard). for me, anti-fun means ,,can this hero rape everyone with a little feed and make me unable to stop him regardless of how smart i play?''. if yes,like most agi heroes in those 2 games, then its anti-fun. if not,im k with anything you throw at me. in lol the closest we get to that are feeded xins or fiddles.

But here's the thing hero's in HoN/DotA would be OP if they were ported to LoL, but since they're not, there really aren't any "OP" heroes. In either game, there's no OP heroes, only OP strategies (stunlock teams).

I just feel that LoL has just degenerated into a game balanced for scrubs. I've been playing a lot of HoN and i can say without a doubt, that HoN is a much better game (imo ofc), because even though a lot of the heroes are dota ports the designers weren't afraid to do whatever they want with the heroes and not say "well our community will think a 4 second snare is too long", they go buck freaking wild!! Blood hunter has a level 1 6 second silence. But of course, this is what i like about the game.

Now let me say, you can not just walk into HoN (same might be true for DotA as well) and have the mentality of a LoL player, you WILL fail, you cannot have the "oh this hero has a 5 second stun, OP, nerf" no you simply have to accept that's what each individual hero does and play around it.

Let me put it this way, you either adapt, or don't play, because the community is very harsh and does not tolerate feeding well.

In the community's terms "too bad, it's me, Blacksmith"

Edited by malphitethewise, 01 March 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[Aldair]

There is an item called Black King Bar. 10 seconds of magic immunity with the duration reduced for each use.

Assuming NO stats would the item still be "good" with 4 seconds of constant immunity with a 60 second cooldown?

Assuming item gives LESS THAN 50 either armor or magic resistence would the item still be "good" with 4 seconds of constant immunity with a 60 second cooldown?

Assuming item gives BETTER THAN 50 armor or magic resistence OR a multiple-hundred health AND mana boost would the item still be "good" with LESS than 4 seconds of immunity with a 60 second cooldown?

These hypothetical changes would make the item more "clutch" and greatly rewards successfully anticipating a burst or ult.

A better idea!

What if Quick Silver Sash removed all magic effects? Urgot is canneling his ult on you? QSS. Vlad's hemoplauge? QSS. Ryze's Rune Prison? QSS. LeBlanc's chains? QSS.

Would the item become considered over powered at that point? I believe it falls under Riot's "anti-fun" policy because it breaks combos.
Relevant Zileas data:

Quote

Anti-Combo
This one is bad. This is essentially when one ability you have diminishes the effectiveness of another in a frustrating manner. Some examples:
- Giving a character a 'break-on-damage' CC with a DOT (yes, warlocks have this, but they tuned it to make it not anti-combo much at all)
- With Warriors in WoW -- they need to get rage by taking damage so that they can use abilities and gain threat -- but parry and dodge, which are key to staying alive, make them lose out on critical early fight rage. So, by gearing as a better tank, you become a worse tank in another dimension -- anti combo!
- With old warrior talent trees in WoW, revenge would give you a stun -- but stunned enemies cannot hit you and cause rage gain... So this talent actually reduced your tanking capability a lot in some sense! Anti-combo!

So. Would this upgraded QSS be a new OP item? Counterplay necessity? Anti-fun?

Edited by Aldair, 01 March 2012 - 09:59 PM.