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Crit Chance or Crit Damage


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#1
OFFLINE   Acedia

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For a tryndamere which would be more useful? I read somewhere that around 60% crit chance the damage runes end up being better but are you better off just choosing crit chance runes and building damage through items? :S

#2
OFFLINE   rusPiglets

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What do you want?
You want a lot of crits or a big fat rare crits?
it's up to you, make up your mind, both are good.

#3
OFFLINE   fowl88

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I would say crit dmg because you get tons of crit through items but you can only get crit dmg from one item which is IE.

#4
OFFLINE   RocfeLLer

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Quote

I would say crit dmg because you get tons of crit through items but you can only get crit dmg from one item which is IE.


Wrong.

Trynd has massive damage late game already, no need help there. Early game is were he is weakest, that is why you need crit chance it not only gives you some damage, but also bloodlust stacks to keep you in lane for longer.

#5
OFFLINE   FranMadaraki

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Math time!



Say, we have 10% critical strike chance, we have 100 AD and our enemy has 30 armor.
Without any runes: 1100×1−(30/130) = 846 damage.

With armor penetration runes (mazimum 29.37):
After 10 hits we deal 1100 × 1−(0.63/100.63) = 1093 damage. 29% damage increase.

We have instead 33.45% critical damage.
After 10 hits we deal 1135 × 1−(30/130) = 873 damage. 3% damage increase.

We have instead 20.25% critical strike chance.
After 10 hits we deal 1302 × 1−(30/130) = 1001 damage. 18% damage increase.

Theeeen we switch to enemy with 100 armor and 20% critical strike chance.
No runes: 600 damage.
Arpen: 703 damage, 17%.
Critdmg: 633.45 damage, 5%.
Critchance: 701 damage, 16%.

And after theen we swtich to a monster with 200 armor. But don't worry, we also have an Infinity Edge now, thus 40% critical strike chance and 50% critical strike damage.
No runes: 533
Arpen: 592, 11%
Critdmg: 577, 8%
Critchance: 634, 18%.


Therefore:
Critical strike damage is always worse.
Critical strike chance requires IE to be effective. You can stack critical strike chance on champions who rely on crits innately (Tryndamere) or have powerful critable physical skills (Gangplank). But you can easily get critical strike chance from items.

Armor penetration requires nothing to be effective. Armor penetration does not rely on luck. Armor penetration works on towers. Armor penetration is always better than both. /thread.

#6
OFFLINE   RocfeLLer

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Nice math Franmadaraki, however I always argue that runes and skill order should benefit your early game as they become inferior to the items mid/late game.

Your math does not take in account real (game) life scenarios:
Tryndamere is a carry, therefore he needs some feeding to really pick up. The better early game you have the faster you get fed and sooner you can kick ass (snowball effect). First of all early game is where Crit chance helps you get bloodlust stacks faster, that means heal yourself easier and it also increases your damage through bloodlust and ofc more frequent criticals. This results in more aggressive gameplay (possibly get first blood, get some kills or push enemies back so you can farm easier). That could possibly mean the difference in some 500-1000g early game. And that is a huge difference for someone like Tryndamare who will melt faces as soon as he gets IE. If that is somewhere in the mid-game, then its GG for the other team.

I use word "possibly" alot as there is no math to back this scenario up, it could be totally different in your case.

#7
OFFLINE   FranMadaraki

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I mentioned Tryndamere for a reason. Since innate critical strike chance has been removed from the game, Tryndamere relies on critical strike chance runes. Speaking of armor penetration, my calculations rely on average damage. But average damage does not, in fact, count on some occasions, because when you can score just a few hits, critical strike chance is better. I will return to this interesting fact later on.

But the whole point is: critical strike damage runes are inferior to both armor penetration and crtical strike chance, and you should never ever buy them.


Speaking of math, I am writing an advanced math-based analysis of existing runes, their comparison and usage.

Quote

runes and skill order should benefit your early game as they become inferior to the items mid/late game.

As I just proved, armor penetration does the most substantial boost early on.
People often say that it doubles damage earlygame, let's test this claim: 1 − x/(100+x) = 2, x = −50, armor must be −20 for this to be true, the claim is false.

#8
OFFLINE   xiuxiu

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head(explode) desk (soaked in blood and brain matter)

My hat is off to you, But my dumbass fails when it comes to math.

Thank you for the insight. ArmorPen FTW!
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#9
OFFLINE   RocfeLLer

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Quote

But the whole point is: critical strike damage runes are inferior to both armor penetration and crtical strike chance, and you should never ever buy them.


Shaco?

Quote

Speaking of math, I am writing an advanced math-based analysis of existing runes, their comparison and usage.


I am really looking forward to read it.

#10
OFFLINE   FranMadaraki

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Shaco?

Deceive's damage no longer counts as a critical strike. From .94, i think. Just X% bonus damage. I don't know whether it can actually crit or not, I think not.

Building a dream runebook for one champion? Don't do that. One patch can scrap it.

Sooo we deal a critical hit. Just one critical hit.
MORE MATH TIME
30 armor, base 100 damage.

Arpen: 198
Critdmg: 179

Even when we deal a critical hit, critical strike damage is substantially worse.

CRITICAL DAMAGE RUNES ALWAYS SUCK

Ok, ok, kidding, gotcha.
They don't always deal less damage.

To deal more damage on a crit, enemy's armor must be more than X in an equation:
233.45×(1-x/(100+x)) = 200-(1-(x-30)/(70+x))
1634150 + 23345x = 2000000 + 20000x
3345x = 365850
x=109

Now think about that for a second.
Rammus with HoG, Aegis and Sunfire (my typical core build) has 102 armor. Rammus is a tank.

Are you really willing to sacrifice 25% damage (towers do count!) to deal more damage only to tanks, only no earlier than midgame and only on crits?

Then critical strike damage is your choice. Otherwise armor penetration is better.

Critical strike damage runes suck. Spread the word, fellow warriors. I think everybody must know this.

#11
OFFLINE   lolaninja

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Quote

Quote

Shaco?

Deceive's damage no longer counts as a critical strike. From .94, i think. Just X% bonus damage. I don't know whether it can actually crit or not, I think not.

Building a dream runebook for one champion? Don't do that. One patch can scrap it.

Sooo we deal a critical hit. Just one critical hit.
MORE MATH TIME
30 armor, base 100 damage.

Arpen: 198
Critdmg: 179

Even when we deal a critical hit, critical strike damage is substantially worse.

CRITICAL DAMAGE RUNES ALWAYS SUCK

Ok, ok, kidding, gotcha.
They don't always deal less damage.

To deal more damage on a crit, enemy's armor must be more than X in an equation:
233.45×(1-x/(100+x)) = 200-(1-(x-30)/(70+x))
1634150 + 23345x = 2000000 + 20000x
3345x = 365850
x=109

Now think about that for a second.
Rammus with HoG, Aegis and Sunfire (my typical core build) has 102 armor. Rammus is a tank.

Are you really willing to sacrifice 25% damage (towers do count!) to deal more damage only to tanks, only no earlier than midgame and only on crits?

Then critical strike damage is your choice. Otherwise armor penetration is better.

Critical strike damage runes suck. Spread the word, fellow warriors. I think everybody must know this.


INCORRECT.

Decieve always had and still currently does benefit from Crit Damage Runes and IE.


Let us begin the math off.

Shaco (Armor Pen Runes) vs Shaco (Crit Damage Runes)

Total Armor Pen Possible: ~29
Total Crit Damage Possible: ~46%

Level 2 Shaco Stats

*Note* I chose level 2 Shaco MAINLY cuz every decent Shaco gets Golem or Lizard at level 1 via JitB and this bumps ya to level 2.

AD: 100 (Simplified to 100 for ease of computing)
Armor: 22 (Actual Armor)

Rank 1 Deceive Bonus: 40%

Formula for Deceive:

(AD) +((AD)*(Bonus Damage+Crit Damage Runes/IE)) = Raw Damage

Armor Formula:
100/100+Armor = Reduction %

So let's do this.

Armor Pen Shaco:

(100)+((100)*(40%+0)) = 140 Deceive Damage

Crit Damage:
(100)+((100)*(86%)) = 186 Deceive Damage * 82%(Armor) = 153 Deceive Damage.


Level 18 Shaco

AD: 200 (For ease of computing)
Armor: 78

Rank 5 Deceive Bonus Damage: 120%

Armor Pen:
(200)+((200)*(120%)) = 440 Deceive Damage * 67% = 296 Deceive Damage

Crit Damage:
(200)+((200)*(166))= 532 Decieve Damage *56% = 299 Decieve Damage

What does this tell us?

Armor Pen WOULD be the logical choice since it gives Deceive slightly LESS damage but gives auto attacks MORE damage.

HOWEVER my argument is this:

Shaco is deadly because of his ability to gank at low levels, not because he can farm minions. Auto Attacking at low levels during laning phase is not realistic because most of the time, the target champion can just run away from you, especially at level 2 when you don't have a slow yet via Twin Shiv Poison. And when every player runs Flash/Cleanse, it's pretty hard to get that gank. In addition, Armor Pen is much MUCH easier to get as opposed to Crit Damage via items. And lastly, 29 armor pen at lower levels can be a waste since 1) It doesn't affect minions at all since they start with 0 armor, 2) Most squishy targets have under 29 armor and 3) By the time you can get your full armor pen (When the target has 29 armor) they can be around level 6, making your prime ganking time gone.

Edits: My bad grammar/spelling xD
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#12
OFFLINE   FranMadaraki

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Poor little fella.

Always doublecheck everything you write.

Patchnote .94 sez

Updated the Deceive tooltip to clarify that the damage is bonus damage not a true critical

Deceive does not, in fact, critically hit, instead it deals up to 220% AD.

#13
OFFLINE   fowl88

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Wow, Thanks for the math guys! I play Tryn alot too and i thought i was supposed to go for all crit dmg runes, luckly i didnt spend much ip yet.

#14
OFFLINE   FranMadaraki

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Quote

And lastly, 29 armor pen at lower levels can be a waste

Armor can be negative.

#15
OFFLINE   lolaninja

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[quote='FranMadaraki' pid='72774' dateline='1278610392']
Poor little fella.

Always doublecheck everything you write.

Patchnote .94 sez

Updated the Deceive tooltip to clarify that the damage is bonus damage [size=large]not[/size] a true critical

Deceive does not, in fact, critically hit, instead it deals up to 220% AD.
[/quote]

INCORRECT my friend. Have you tested it? Also there was a blue post on PvP.net forums that clarified it does scale. Just too lazy to look for quote.

[quote='FranMadaraki' pid='72776' dateline='1278610829']
[quote]And lastly, 29 armor pen at lower levels can be a waste [/quote]
Armor can be negative.
[/quote]

Incorrect AGAIN!

Armor can only go negative if you have Armor REDUCTION. NOT penetration. And because of how these are applied Pen > Reduction > %, you can not ever get someone below 0 unless you have starks and they have under 20 armor.

Oh and found the quote and link for Deceive

[quote name=''Guinsoo']Fear not' date=' Deceive is still an actual crit (benefits from crit damage runes and Infinity Edge). We're just trying to figure out how to write the tooltip for it to be clear.[/quote']

[url=http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=144267&highlight=shaco+crit+damage&page=2]Source[/url]
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